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Biggest Prem flop
Right, let’s be clear here Overlords at Football365 Towers; the mailbox has been piss poor for a good few weeks now. The nadir being the unwelcome re-emergence of Darragh G, Spurs, Ireland and his unhealthy obsession with us today. No greater depths are left to be plumbed. Trust me petal, this ‘thing’ between Spurs and Liverpool… It really is a one-way street. It’s not our fault we hopped off you 5-0 at the lane getting your beloved AVB the sack, is it!? I was there, your support turned on him in a massive way, you only have yourselves to blame. It was shameful.
Anyway worry ye not! For I am here to save the Friday PM mailbox!
It’s a simple question. Who is the biggest flop in the PL era?
Unlike Darragh G I am quite happy to focus on my own club. For my money the biggest flop in the PL era (to have played for Liverpool) is the Lord of the Manor of Frodsham. In fairness the list of players who have arrived for big money or to a certain amount of pomp (how many final pieces of the jigsaw did we buy!?) is long and not particularly distinguished. The Scouse giddy-o-meter has been ratcheted up plenty of times for players who have ultimately flattered to deceive or did not make the most of their burgeoning talents, not fitted the system or simply thought they’d arrived when they signed the contract. Only we could have served up the Spice Boys at that time, more interested in being on TFI Friday than putting in a shift. Or modeling, remember David James and the Armani shoot?
Anyway, turning to Cisse himself I cannot tell you how excited I was for him to make his debut at WHL. We’d been chasing him for years but Guy Roux kept saying ‘non’ and we’d shelve the pursuit for another year. All the while he was banging them in as the main goal-getter for an Auxerre side punching significantly above their weight. When we did get him it took 14M, back when 14M was a truckload of money. I always felt Ged wasn’t able to use his French connections well enough and indeed had departed (IIRC) by the time Cisse would eventually line up for us.
It would be churlish not to recognise the two horrifc leg breaks but even prior to the Blackburn game it was becoming clear that we had overpaid a little in desperation and that PL defences might be wise to pace being his greatest asset and a thunderbastard being his preferred choice of shot! Another shocking leg breaker playing for France really made you wonder if mentally he was ever the same player again. Understandably.
But for the chase and the personal excitement versus the actual delivery I would have to file him at the biggest flop to have player for Liverpool in the PL era even if the reasons behind this are complex. My abiding memory is of Djibril screaming in agony, looking for comfort as his leg is held to together only by his sock and Styles making some sort of no penalty / no corner gesture as he looms over the stricken player and completely misreads the situation.
Outside of L14 the biggest flop in the PL era is quite clearly Dimiflop Berbaflop who save Wetched Woy making him look good for one game against us was absolutely abysmal for United but who was it for your club?
Gregory Whitehead, LFC
Henry’s approach
I can’t say I’m too surprised about the Henry’s sacking. As a teacher of kids to adults, I cringed watching him stare down the player that left out his chair.
That type of intimidating behaviour is just not healthy, and reminded me of the bullies you’d see in the school yard. Henry is my favourite all time player, so it was particularly galling seeing him act like this.
It must be difficult to make the transition from player to manager (your Petit piece is a good insight) but when it comes down to it, it relies on knowing how to manage people – look at how well Lampard and Gerrard have done. I don’t doubt it took a lot of work on their behalf too, not just innate belief that they’d be great.
However molly-coddled players are alleged to be nowadays, you still have to help them grow as players, *and* as people, something I often admired Wenger for. Henry really needs to have a hard look at his own motivations for wanting to manage, his understandings of coaching, and just generally how the teacher-pupil relationship can work. Being a bully isn’t any way to manage a team, and thankfully that’s never more true than in today’s climate.
Nelson (could we have a feature on previous F365 writers and where they are now?)
Losing patience with Nev
Being a United fan since about 1990 there will always be a special place in my heart for the Neviller. He was a bloody marvellous right back and the perfect captain throughout our most successful period. Since hanging up his boots he’s changed the game in terms of punditry. And of course there was that celebration when United scored against Liverpool.
But he really is starting to grind my gears with his inability to grasp how a manager (Jose in this case) can create such an awful atmosphere at a club that is very difficult if not impossible for all the players to play at their best on a regular basis. To be fair, it’s not just Gary having this particular difficulty as most ex pros with an opinion seem to have little sympathy for the modern player, but given his legendary status at United and exposure on TV combine to produce approximately 30 billion sound bites from him every week, his intervention is by far the most disappointing and annoying.
The most recent assertion, that this squad is incapable of winning the title because they are able to turn their performances on and off is laughable. Firstly, it completely absolves Jose of any blame for the poor performances in the last 12-18 months of his tenure. United were rubbish against Liverpool? Nothing to do with tactics, style of play, belief or leadership from the manager, the players just decided not to play. Sorry Gary, but though the players haven’t covered themselves in glory at times, when your team is so poor for so long the manager is at fault. Perhaps you’re covering yourself for the outburst where you defended Mourinho before the Newcastle game? (Without that outburst, would Jose have gone sooner?)
Another problem with this latest nugget is that it would actually be weird if players didn’t have the ability to “turn off” their ability to perform. Does Messi sit at home talking about yet another match winning performance with his mates saying “I don’t know man it’s weird, I tried to play badly but I just couldn’t, it’s like my feet were moving all by themselves”. Does Modric tell his wife after a game “I felt really terrible today. Thank God I am unable to decide to play badly”. The fact that players could decide not to turn up for a manager just makes them human and I don’t think there’s a player in the world who isn’t affected by their manager/coach.
I think this view point coming out of the Neviller and other ex pros comes from a few places. In many cases the pundits in question are genuine legends of the game such as Roy Keane and Graeme Souness. For these guys there’s a feeling that everyone should be as good as they were. This is particularly evident with Keane and his management style. There an inability to see the best in (or as managers, get the best out of) players, because their best simply isn’t good enough for their impossibly high standards. It made them terrific leaders in their time but they’re outdated and now come across as just angry.
Another factor is that they have mostly had a go at managing and been relatively unsuccessful (if they had been successful they wouldn’t be pundits). I reckon their inability to “man-manage” played a part in their lack of success and now contributes to their bitterness about what they perceive to be a degradation in values in the modern footballer. It’s like they’re constantly feeling the need to provide evidence of why it wasn’t their fault they failed, rather it was their players.
More generally I think the criticism of players in this way is an indictment of the lack of real understanding of what leadership is in the football world and the UK as a whole. For me Jeff, at a basic level it’s about having a vision and being able to sell that vision to your people so that they follow you along. That is something that Jose failed to do at United in his two and half years. The players, fans and eventually the club were genuinely confused about what he was trying to do and in part due to that lack of clarity he started falling out with players. (I would also say Ed Woodward has failed in this regard). It’s not just about having control and expecting people to do their jobs, it’s about showing people why they should follow you and encouraging them to want to be a part of it.
And as if by magic another former player who is an absolute legend of the game has failed at management, seemingly for similar reasons. I watched that video of Henry staring at the youth player for not tucking his chair in (what the actual sh*t?) and could see instantly why he failed. Yet another ex pro guilty of judging other players but his own ridiculous standards and exerting insane levels of control. It won’t be long before he’s back on Sky as a pundit, bemoaning the lack of professionalism in today’s footballers. He was bad enough in the first place.
This whole blaming the players thing is getting more boring than all the mailboxes saying how much Liverpool have been cheating this season (also bollocks). So Gary, open your bloody eyes, Mourinho was toxic. Even if Ole isn’t the second coming of Sir Alex he has got this group of players playing for each other and the fans. I’m not sure if we can say Mourinho ever really achieved that once in his whole time at the club. That’s not the players, that’s leadership.
Ashley (lets hope they don’t turn it off again though) Metcalfe
Stay on your feet
Lots have been written about on here about managers and supporters encouraging footballers to go down easily to win penalties and free-kicks. Thus, (because it’s Friday), I have come up with some footballing moments that may have been wiped from history had the goal-scorers not STAYED ON THEIR FEET!!!
1) Sergio Aguero vs QPR 2012.
The thought of Mario Ballotelli trying a Panenka to win the league in the last minute of injury time has turned my bowels to jelly. So thanks Sergio! (And thank you Joey Barton.)
2) Michael Owen vs Argentina 1998
Ah the bittersweet impetuosity of youth. Made us believe again. And then Beckham/Simeone happened and we lost faith in England until it nearly came home last summer.
3) Archie Gemmill vs Holland 1978.
Had he gone down, Scotland would have missed the pen in hilarious fashion and Trainspotting would have been less interesting.
4) Ryan Giggs vs Arsenal 1999
Had the Welsh wizard not stayed on his feet, Ole would still be in charge of Molde now, David May wouldn’t have photo-bombed every United celebratory picture and we wouldn’t have been treated to Giggsy’s chest wig.
5) Ricky Villa vs City 1981
Meh. Every single FA Cup weekend, I’m still shouting for Gerry Gow to break his legs. Nice goal though. And an impressive pre-hipster scruffy beard.
6) Diego Maradona vs England 1986
Cheer up Peter Reid.
Any more examples where the virtues of STAYING ON THEIR FEET shone through?
@rubym83
A lino writes
Enjoyed Peter’s lino article. I don’t think linos are under appreciated but I wanted to tell a bit about how, when you take the flag, you have nowhere to hide.
The referee is in there with the ebb and flow of the game. Great refs deal with difficult situations by reading the game and player reactions. None of that for the AR. You have to have this total focus. Ready for any through ball – and any movement by defenders. Any shot could be a goal/no goal decision. Any tame back pass could become a game turning moment that’s on you.
The big decisions you have to make as a lino are always the ones that no one else can help with: off the bar and in? crossover offside? breakaway DOGSO? The ref can always ask advice on penalty decisions. And the ref can always “manage” decision. The lino is on her own with these. The weird unexpected stuff – ping pong offsides, muffed saves – all land with the AR with no one to help.
And you have to have pace. A referee can disguise a certain lack of pace with positioning and anticipation. With the flag, you have to have that anticipation – ready for any pass – and then you have to keep up. It stands out a mile that no one can keep up with Bellerin or Mane – but then they are world-class athletes. To flag sensible level games you have to have real speed and be able to keep pace with mortal athletes. You might only run 4-5 miles a game but, in the wrong game, that will all be totally concentrated sideways movement switching to flat out hell for leather, over and over again.
The premier league group are amazing. They are fairly mean looking bunch but they routinely make incredible correct decisions on tight offsides. This is partly down to the training they do on flash lag – basically retraining your brain to account for the phenomenon that a player looks more offside than they actually are when crossing at speed.
This wasn’t going to be one of those “you should try it” things but it’s gone that way. I love it. It is mental! Mentally and physically extremely challenging. And the potential for humiliation is always a millisecond away.
An aspiring lower league lino
The North (F365 since 97)
Levy like Ashley
Consider this: Spurs and Newcastle’s net spend over the last 5 years are broadly comparable;
Mike prefers to spend profits from transfers and tv revenue on Sports Direct investing in non football related activities
ENIC prefer to spend their money on buying up the real estate around the ground rather than new players
Both have good managers who are working with shackles
However
Daniel employs ex players as match day hosts and not a word of dissent comes from them (Graham Roberts used to slate Alan Sugar)
Mike just alienates everyone and finally…
I am not sure history has recorded Daniel puking up in a pub fireplace.
David Harris, Sydney
Squad game
I was keen to see what the reaction would be to the Carabao Cup semi-final yesterday, but one thing I didn’t see coming is any Spurs fans defending the squad depth. To my mind, and I can’t imagine I’m alone on this one, it’s nothing but a squad depth issue.
As an outsider, my assessment of Spurs’ best players is: Lloris, Alderweireld, Alli, Eriksen, Son & Kane. There are a few other very good players (Vertonghen, Sanchez and Winks are good prospects, and probably Dier), but other than that there’s a lot of 6 or 7 out of 10 players, which is fine – it’s a story repeated in most teams. The reason it looks like a depth issue is because of the answer to one question: are any of those players really being pushed for their place in the starting lineup?
Out of the players I suggested were their best, Spurs really are lacking in any kind of competitive alternatives; I’d say only Alderweireld really has adequate cover. Llorente, Lamela and Moura are nothing like as good as Kane, Son, Eriksen or Alli. From what I can see, they don’t even have enough backup for all those positions, never mind competitive backup. And this isn’t a question of form either; it’s not like the replacements are great players that are suffering from a loss of form – what Spurs have been getting out of them appears to be as good as they can give.
It probably sounds simplistic but if Spurs had any genuine ambitions of challenging for silverware then they need to improve those alternatives, not their starting 11. They need to stop thinking of them as backup players and start thinking of them as competition for the starters. The question you always hear from Spurs fans is “who would want to come and play backup to Kane?” but the question a genuine title-challenging team would be asking is “who can actually challenge Kane for his spot?” I will concede that finding someone as good as Kane would be tough and probably expensive but that’s what you have to do if you want to win a title. Of course Spurs have hamstrung themselves a little bit there because they’ve prioritised investing in their stadium, which is fine and probably a good decision long-term, but it does mean they can’t strengthen their squad as much as they need to.
But let’s get one thing clear: last night wasn’t about Spurs bottling it, it was just a case of their replacements not being up to the task. I would say that Spurs could have won that game last night if they’d had Kane, Alli and Son in their team. On their day, Spurs have proved that they can beat just about anyone with their best eleven on the pitch, so I just don’t agree with the suggestion that it’s not a squad issue. Put another way: if Spurs had £200m to spend on transfers and wages, how many of those “good reserve options” would they opt against replacing? I can’t believe that there would be too many survivors.
Ted, Manchester
…I’m a Spurs fan and completely agree with Mark from this mornings mailbox. We have some outstanding players, Kane, Alli, Son, Erikssen, Vertonghen and Alderwiereld would probably get into most teams across Europe. The rest I think aren’t quite as dependable as needed, they can be game changers on their day but that day is less frequent, could be simply down to form, fatigue, tactic’s or just that they have never been at the upper level and the expectations have changed so we now notice it.
I do get a bit bored about the spending argument, sure It would have been nice to have signed a few more players but it bores me that we are judged on what we have spent rather than what the club’s players are actually worth. Put it down to decent scouting or shrewd business or luck or a great youth setup but don’t value our players on what we paid for them.
If we needed more players then we had the options of signing them, or selling a star and reinvesting in the team. We are bloody expensive to go and watch, outrageous for merch and get so much TV time that the club is generating enough money to put into the team. The stadium is separately funded and only works if we remain competitive.
We deserve the same criticism that the other teams get when we/they fail. It’s infuriating that a loss to Arsenal is almost deemed acceptable because we ‘only’ have a £5m Alli and they have a £45m Ozil for example.
We aren’t plucky, we aren’t punching. We deserve to be where we are and it’s patronising to reduce the merits of our side simply down to what the club shelled out for the world class players we currently have.
Rant over.
Steve THFC.
What has Poch got the refs?
Can anyone tell me what stranglehold Spurs have over referees?
Last night was shocking. 9 fouls by half time, and no yellows, and 16 fouls by the end of the game, with 1 yellow card. Chelsea got 3 from 9. Meanwhile Lamela throws an elbow (shock) and gets nothing! Not even a yellow for a clear red card offence
In the league game at Wembley, Spurs committed 19 fouls and got zero yellow cards – this must be a PL record?
Is it because they have a lot of English players, and they are popular in the media? Or does Poch have compromising photos of someone at the FA?
Paul, London.
Some Friday Fred
Well Derek, I was totally prepared for last night, in fact I predicted it in my email, by saying “we’ll win nothing again, as usual”!
And no, I don’t blame it on Liverpool, I blame it on something you Liverpool fans are utterly unfamiliar with, & seemingly completely immune to: Bad Luck.
Not so much last night, but prior events that led to us losing our 3 best players. I’d like to see Liverpool win a single game without Salah, Mane & Firminio, which is your equivalent of Kane, Son & Alli.
While we’re on the subject of Liverpool, how cowardly is it to “throw” the FA cup, when you’d already gone out of the League cup? You’ll never be considered a great team, no matter what you win.
Despite our injuries & possibility of fixture congestion, we’ll give it our best shot, although I think we’re in for another defeat at the hands of Palace!
I sincerely hope you’ll get to experience some bad luck, injuries, unkind deflections, bad refereeing decisions etc. then you’ll know how the rest of us feel!
Fred (Lady luck is imprisoned somewhere in Anfield), London
Not having diving, ever
Aiden quite succinctly sums up diving by stating some see it as a sin, some as smart.
But then goes on to polarise this position by asking whether we wouldn’t accept a dive to win a trophy.
Well, here’s my opinion. I hate diving. In all its forms. It’s cheating.
No contact dive over an opponent’s leg? = cheating.
Felt a brush from an opponent’s sleeve and fallen to the floor as if poleaxed? = cheating.
Opponent puts their hand on you shoulder and you collapse as if Mike Tyson has clobbered you? = cheating.
Win a penalty in the 96th minute of the cup final with the scores at 0-0? = cheating.
So if one of my players cheated to win a trophy, of course I’d accept it. Winning trophies is what football is all about. And I’d be as happy as a dog with two dicks if lowly Southend United won a cup. But that doesn’t mean I would be happy with one of my players diving and cheating. The two are not mutually exclusive. I am allowed to feel both at the same time – joy at winning a cup, disgust at cheating.
And should this situation arise, then I would continue to vocally and publicly condemn diving and cheating in all its forms.
And before anyone calls me a hypocrite for this, let me counter by saying, if the referee were to send one of my players off for diving, I would support the referee completely.
Paul Watson, Exiled Shrimper, living in Surrey
Wise old owl
Did anyone else think Roy Hodgson seemed like a bit of a dick in the interview linked to in Nicolson’s article? The journalist was just trying to do his job. Having said that, I’ve also watched his press conference in French after the terrorist attack, and all I can say is that I’m glad it wasn’t ‘Arry or Sam in charge at the time.
Also, on the topic of speech impediments, I’m no expert (although my brother used to have one), but I’ve recently watched a couple of documentaries featuring Alex Ferguson, and it strikes me that he has one – he pronounces ‘l’ as ‘w’. The tabloid media never made a big deal of it though. Maybe they thought it was part of his Scottish accent, or maybe he’s just a more intimidating character.
Robert, Birmingham.
Mac Allister – an explanation
I’m sure someone with a better memory or who can be bothered to use google can enlighten you further on this but in basically, a bunch of Scottish railway workers went to South America to build the railways there at some point in, I think, the 1860’s. Unsurprising they shagged anything that would let them and more than a few thought staying was preferable to returning. 150 years on you end up with names like Mac Allister throughout Argentina, Boliva, Chile etc.
Matt, AFC